Amanda, welcome.
How are you doing?
I'm good.
I love the word resilience.
Yeah, that's a good one, actually.
You know, when I was reading your story,
I was like, no, this is about resilience.
And God knows that when
you're an entrepreneur,
you need a good dose of resilience.
And we're going to talk about it.
you started a career in the
marketing space.
And your achievements, actually,
you have received quite a few accolades.
And some of your
achievements include RBC
and the Woman of Influence nominations,
as well as a bronze in the
2019 Canadian Marketing Associate Awards.
Looking at it, I'm like,
It looks like she had a beautiful career.
You know, she was successful.
So what prompts you to shift
from being a brand
marketing manager to
venturing out on your own
entrepreneurship journey?
I mean,
a lot of lessons that turned into
blessings, I would say.
But it wasn't the first time that I
ventured out into the entrepreneur world.
I actually tried it quite a few years ago,
which is when you and I met.
I think that was like 2017
or 2018 was when I first
started everything.
And I could not, for the life of me,
get it off the ground.
And I had to have some hard
conversations with my husband.
And he was just like,
I really think you need to
go back to work.
I know you want to build this thing,
but we've got bills to pay.
You're expensive, Amanda.
So we need to figure
something out if you want
to keep living this lifestyle.
And I was really,
really resistant to it and
almost hoping and praying
for that overnight growth and just like,
it's going to work.
It's going to work.
But I was like,
I got to be realistic here.
And I'm such a dreamer.
So it was very hard for me
to come to terms with that.
So I ended up finding...
a job in corporate that was part-time and
that was really, really flexible.
And I was like, this isn't so bad.
I think I could do this for a little while,
but I'm going to give
myself a year in this role
to see what I can do.
And then I'm going to try
the whole entrepreneurship again.
This time I'll be a little
bit more savvy about it.
I'll make sure that the
finances are in order.
We've got clients that we're
already working with.
and we'll try it again.
Cause the first time it was
more me thrown into entrepreneurship,
you know, I was asked to leave a job, um,
in a very unfortunate way,
in a way that I was, you know,
signed to not talk about,
which was like a big, big red flag.
And, uh,
one day I will open up a little
bit more about that
horrifying experience.
Um, but that's not the decade for that.
So, so we went back and everything was,
was all good.
And, um,
things were really moving.
I had a leadership team that
was so supportive of my
business that I was still trying to grow.
So I was one of those like
5 to 9am I would work on
my business and then I'd go
into the office from nine
to five and then I'd work
on my business from 5 to 10pm.
So it was just like,
Constant work, constant work.
I also was trying to explore
sober life and how I could
just be better than the way
that I was currently running.
And I don't know what your
experience with alcohol is like, Darine,
but mine has not been great
and it has done me no favors.
Just made me tired.
I had to start getting Botox.
Um,
and it's just not good for utilizing
the skill sets that we have.
So that was when I really
started to kind of explore that.
Um,
but things started to take a little bit
of a turn at the corporate job.
My leader at the time who
was introducing me to other women,
Uh, getting me at tables in boardrooms, um,
with like really C-level
people sharing my ideas.
And again,
very supportive of what I was
doing in my business.
He fell really sick.
We got new leadership on the
team and they were not so
keen on what I was doing.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
So, um,
I don't know if you've ever heard
of that theory.
Of like you cut the tallest poppy.
Tell us more.
So this usually happens in
corporate spaces when
people are excelling in their role.
Jealousy will come into play
and the team members and
colleagues will stop at
nothing to essentially cut
the tall poppy out.
and eliminate them from the path.
So a lot of this started to happen.
I was asked to speak a lot
within the company,
host social media training
sessions while dealing with
colleagues who didn't think
I should be doing that.
Um,
so as my former leader grew sicker and
sicker, uh,
these team members felt like
it was time to just
continue to the bullying
and to push me out because
there was nobody there to quote unquote,
save me, um, from all of this.
And unfortunately he passed
away and it was, yeah, it just horrible.
He was wonderful.
Um, and yeah.
that was when it got really
really bad and I simply
said all right I'm giving
myself three months and I'm
out of here yeah I'm out of
here no matter what if I
don't have any clients like
this is not the space for
me anymore I can't grow and
it's really uh taking a
toll on my mental health my
personal relationships and
you know the dreams I have
to grow my business
Oh my gosh, Amanda,
it sounds like you have
been through a lot in such
a short period of time.
So see,
when I told you resilience is the
right word to describe you,
I was just right.
I want to talk about
a topic that is quite sensitive, but I...
You are the first person
actually that I hear talking about it,
or at least who is willing
to open up about it,
is betrayal in business.
And listen,
I have been betrayed in business as well.
And it made me lose a lot of money.
and my mental sanity as well,
I should say.
But I never talked about it
because I thought maybe I was too kind.
I was too naive.
I was, you know, of course, you know,
I would just doubt myself
instead of assessing and
analyzing the situation.
And
I realized that betrayal in
business is something that
is quite common.
Right.
And so can you tell us what happened?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm sorry that you went through that too.
It is so confusing.
And it's a really fine line.
Like you want to talk about
it because you want to
prevent other people from
going through that.
But you also don't want to
come off as petty or bitter
about the situation.
But I honestly think you
have every right to be a little petty.
Oh, 100%.
100%.
Okay.
So, I mean, I ended up quitting corporate.
This goes into the betrayal story.
I ended up quitting corporate in 2020,
pandemic situation.
We moved to Mexico in 2021
because we were living in a tiny condo
in Toronto,
both of us trying to work from home.
And I'm like, this is not working.
Let's blow this popsicle stand and go somewhere.
I remember,
I remember your life in Mexico
and all that you shared on
Instagram and oh my goodness,
you lived your best life there.
Yes.
But it was also very
confusing because we're in
this amazing space,
but we couldn't even share
it with the people that we loved.
Like nobody could come visit us.
And all I wanted to do is
just host and hang out.
And I'm like,
we can be in lockdown together.
It'll be so fun.
So that's when my business
truly took off because I
was really sharing a
different side of myself,
which was typically advice
that you wouldn't get from
social media gurus.
It's like, no, stick to the business,
the tips and tricks, the education,
the quick wins.
But I was like, that's kind of dry.
And there's another space
for that on social.
But in my stories is really
where I gave you a look
inside of the behind the
scenes of the business,
but also like my life and
just like things that I was doing,
thoughts that I was having.
That's when the business started to grow.
Naturally,
it started to attract other
people to wanting to work with me,
not only to hire me,
which is how my business
partnership started out,
but then to evolve into me
hiring them to work with me.
So my,
my business partner found me through
somebody sharing my
Instagram stories with her
and things were going great.
And she,
it was almost like a love bombing
situation.
I did not realize that at the time,
but you know, she'd send me these long
voice notes, messages, just like,
you're so great.
I've learned so much from
you and don't get me wrong.
Like I appreciate, you know,
when people compliment you.
But I always like had this
thing in the back of my head of like,
this is like a lot though.
Like, is there an angle here?
I always have a little bit
of trust issues as it is.
But I decided to ignore it
because I'm like, you know what, Amanda,
there's good people out there.
This is genuine.
And maybe this is just how
they express themselves.
So just, you know, take it for what it is.
As she continued to work with me,
she became a part of my membership and
And I really like took her
under my wing and was like mentoring her.
She asked for opportunities to, you know,
teach in the membership or
just like even do a
collaboration post together
and share some of her ideas.
And of course, I said yes,
because I had no reason not
to allow her to do that.
And I always want to give
other women opportunities
to speak in front of
audiences that can benefit.
So I was like, let's do this.
This is kind of what my
membership's all about.
Let's give people
opportunities to grow their own spaces.
So from there we ended up
just working more and more together.
It was bringing her in on
like side projects that I was doing.
She was just like helping
with like a lot of the
admin stuff until
eventually she became kind of like my
like equal in terms of skillset,
which is great.
Cause I'm like, I've done my job here.
Like I've taught you everything.
I know you can now do it yourself.
This is great.
Cause she wanted to start
her own social media business.
So we partnered up.
In 2021,
we got reached out to by a few
clients wanting us to do
social media management.
And this was something that
I was already doing for a
select few clients.
Like they had to be the right fit.
It was very important for me
because it's a lot.
And you we almost go like
method when we do social.
We get in the brain and we
want to sound like the
brand and really give off
that vibe and that essence.
And I was like, you know what?
I'll only do this if we do it together.
So that was what really
started the partnership.
We ended up splitting like
all the client work 50-50.
We were booked to the max.
I had a team of like eight
people and growing at one point,
like tons and tons of clients.
I never even had to look at
my bank account,
which was like such a
difference from when I got
fired and was on freaking
EI and just like, what am I going to do?
Having to literally ask my husband for,
you know, money for things,
which is hard when you a woman,
because you want to make your own,
but be, you've been used to
being able to provide for yourself.
So I was like,
things are going great until
they weren't.
So I noticed some like shifts in the team,
um,
I essentially had her
managing a lot of the team members.
I would come in for the monthly meets,
but the day to day was like
a lot of her stuff.
And I would be responsible, of course,
for doing the sales calls
and really managing the
relationships with the clients.
And yeah,
I was just kind of noticing like
a shift in the team's energy.
They were being weird to me,
and like almost not
comfortable asking me
things that they would ask
me before and I mean you
know me I'm a pretty
approachable person I don't
think I'm scary at all but
it was like they became
scared of me okay what the
heck happened so I'm
starting to go through you
know self-doubt imposter
syndrome thinking like I've
changed and I'm different now and
all that kind of stuff.
And then I find out, you know, months,
months down the road after
we stopped working together,
that she had been telling
people on the team that I
didn't like them.
Oh my goodness.
Yes.
So that was one of the
things that I discovered,
which is heartbreaking because, you know,
who knows how those team members felt,
but I know it's not good.
And none of that was ever said.
Right.
So that was one.
And we also had.
And this was the straw that
broke the camel's back where the real,
real betrayal in my eyes happened is, um,
we had a client who I never
worked with directly.
Um, but you know,
bring them into the business,
sign them up with a social media team,
because at that point with
that many clients, it was no longer me,
um, executing on all of the client work.
And.
You know, we had this call.
in May of 2022.
And it was me, the business partner,
the client and two other team members.
And the air in the call was
like very weird.
And it was basically this
client like giving me
attitude and telling me
reasons why she didn't like
me on the call in front of the team.
Wow.
That's rude.
It was very awkward.
And I think the most awkward
part is that nobody said
anything when she was, you know,
expressing herself,
which in my opinion should
have been a one-to-one conversation.
And I left that call like very upset,
wondering
what the heck just happened?
And I should have added this context.
We were having a phone call
with her to let her know
that her contract was going
to expire and we weren't
going to be doing the same
social media services anymore.
So on the call, she goes, well,
who says I even want to work with you,
Amanda?
Yeah.
Wow.
Yes.
So I left that call kind of
like shaking and like,
what the heck was that?
And why was everybody like so silent?
If somebody had ever said
anything like that to one
of my team members,
I would have gone like
Wolfie mode in a
professional way and been like,
what's going on here?
You know?
Of course.
I mean, you know why she
behaved like this with you?
Yes.
So also on the call, after she said,
who says, I even want to work with you,
Amanda,
she turns and looks at my business
partner.
Let's call her Mary.
And she goes, Mary,
I'd love to continue with you.
But
we're business partners so
you don't do that slash we
have like a no compete and
you just don't do that to
your business partner so
after the call she was
seriously entertaining
taking this client on
And I was like, okay, well,
we need to talk about the
contract and so on and so forth.
Um, and she's like, well, I just like,
don't owe you anything.
So if I'm going to do it,
I'm going to do it on my own.
Cause somebody wants to work with me.
So it was a couple of days
later that I went into my
Google drive and I found.
Uh,
proposals that she sent not only to
this client.
but to other clients we had
at the time and even past
clients to take them under
her new social media agency
she was building.
Oh my gosh.
How did you feel when you found out?
That was like the betrayal.
And after that conversation,
we never spoke again.
But you, I mean,
the mental health toll that, you know,
it must have taken on you.
That must have been horrible.
It was intense.
And the cherry on top of
that phone call is that evening.
I received a really long
email from that client who
is a therapist.
I feel like this is
important for the story.
She is a therapist and,
And attached was a 13 minute
long video of her literally
explaining every reason why
she doesn't like me,
who she never worked with
in this whole thing.
And it was like, really like.
I don't know,
it was like kind of mean
stuff and just who takes
the time to send a video like that.
And she CC'd my business partner on it.
But as I said,
never heard from my business
partner again.
Wow.
That's one of a kind.
Honestly, that's really one of a kind.
And so I know that the
mental break from it is
that you wanted to go back to work,
to the corporate.
You no longer wanted to be
an entrepreneur.
That was it.
Yeah.
I felt like
okay,
I'm building this business from
scratch now.
I want to move away from
that traditional social media management,
more on strategy,
but also trying to process
what just happened.
Yeah, to therapy for it,
because I was like, confused.
And I felt sideswiped and
just bamboozled and conned
and hoodwinked and all those phrases.
It was very
confusing for me and I
needed to process but also
I was like I gotta keep
this business going like
what am I gonna do um and
of course the back of my
mind it was like okay you
can go back to corporate
there's always corporate
Amanda you should go back
if you ever need to but I
felt like I had put
so much into building my personal brand.
I had gotten so much
momentum and done this
really big thing with the
agency and for it to just
be done overnight.
I was like,
I cannot do that to myself
because there was a reason
why I left corporate the first place.
It was not a fit.
And I don't know if it ever
would be a fit again.
So the fun thing that happened, though,
from all of this is it
really shed light on
everything I don't want to
do in my business.
A lot of lessons that
turned into blessings.
I had a spark of inspiration one day.
And this was me reflecting
back on the business growth
and how I had originally
built my community.
And the loyal followers,
the loyal clients that like
I keep working with over
and over and over again.
So it was this kind of like
montage that was going on
in my head of like all the
good times that you would see in a movie.
Cause I'm like, I want to go back to that.
That's when I felt alive and like amazing.
I didn't feel drained from
doing all this work that I
didn't want to be doing.
And it was then that I was like, wow,
I built this.
all of that through pretty
much Instagram stories.
And I was like,
then looking at the other
features of Instagram and
the other social media
platforms and the types of
communities that lived in these spaces,
which sparked the Insta site method.
Right?
You don't need to post
everywhere all the time in
the same way because the
audience is different.
And this is what I like
about you and your approach
to social media.
It is, I feel,
a good description would be
a non-overwhelming approach
to social media.
And I have been quite open
about my love-hate
relationship with social media.
And, you know,
I have asked in my Insta stories,
you know,
questions for you about digital
marketing and social media.
And almost the same
questions came back that
you are very familiar with is, you know,
how many times should I post?
And, you know,
what type of content should I post?
And how do I engage with people?
And I feel like this is so
overwhelming now.
There is a new feature every
other day that you got to
use in order to be in the
favor of the platform,
to get the favor of the platform,
or at least for the
platform to push your content.
Then there is algorithm change.
And then there are so many
things that you have to
think of when your life is already busy,
right?
And so I know it refrains a
lot of people from being
active and building their personal brand,
their thought leader,
and eventually their
business on social media.
And what I like with the Insta site,
and you're going to tell us more about it,
is this is it.
You do this once.
You are very strategic about it.
And you don't need to think
about it at least for a while.
And this is what I call a
non-overwhelming approach
to social media.
Because no matter what happened,
the strategy behind is so
thoughtful and so strong
that it allows us to have this...
this time to appreciate it
to understand the benefit
of it and to leverage it
for professional growth so
now tell us more about this
idea and how did you come
up with the insta site and
where do you see the impact
of the insta sites
with your clients?
I mean it
was really like stories
that sparked it all for me
to go down this rabbit hole of
how are people consuming
content on either the
different features that Instagram has,
whether it's stories, reels, lives, feed,
and how are people
consuming content on other
social media platforms?
Because they all have their own nuance.
They all have their own language.
And I feel like that's just
not talked about enough.
It's more so...
People are thinking I have
to post every day and
they're posting just to
post without any sort of
real understanding,
even at the basic level
that like your audience is
probably not engaging the
way that you're expecting
in that specific space.
So as I was uncovering.
these, you know,
different audiences in the spaces,
I essentially categorized
platforms and formats into
two different buckets.
One is those that are really
good at growth and
discoverability and the
platforms that are really
good at nurturing and converting.
And if you can essentially
pick one platform from each
of the categories,
you're going to have a very
holistic and well-running
approach to social.
You don't need to do all the
things because as you said, Darine,
it's very overwhelming and you just,
you don't need to do it all,
especially at the beginning.
You can't,
you're going to spread yourself
too thin and you're never
going to be able to get any
sort of traction,
no matter what you do and
how much time you spend in these places.
The other thing that I think
is important to know is right now,
there is such a desire
with these online
communities and people in general,
but I mean,
we're all part of online communities,
to go back to the basics
and to really find niche
experiences and niche communities.
So with that understanding,
you can now essentially
carve out any topic
and it be successful on a
platform if you're like really,
really sticking to it.
And one of the things that I
love to recommend to people
is doing that over on a
space like TikTok.
And I know it can be
overwhelming over there to get started.
And I feel like we've got a
little PTSD from Instagram
and like all the freaking
stuff we had to do on Instagram.
But
It really is such an
intimate space and you can
find your people like that.
And the reach is insane.
They've beat Google as like
the number one search platform now.
Like the capabilities, right?
Number one search platform
like before Google?
Before Google.
People are going to TikTok first,
which is crazy to say because
When you think about how
many users of TikTok there
are compared to how many
people know about Google,
it's like a fraction.
But even in 2022,
when I was reading about it,
the stat was 43%.
So now it has surpassed.
So I don't,
I gotta find the number of what it is,
but back in 2022 is 43% of
people are now going to
TikTok or even other social
platforms for their initial search,
because they're getting
that like snapshot,
that bird's eye view of the
experience that you don't get on Google,
right?
You usually see text first.
where it's visual when you go to social.
So with the Insta site,
the Insta site name is more
so referring to a static
grid on Instagram.
You're treating your
Instagram like a website
and like somebody is
searching in the search bar.
for something.
So all of the content is
related to what you would
typically find on a website.
And it's highly searchable
keywords and topics that
you're putting out there
because we want to mimic that experience.
People are already used to
that experience and that
motion over on Google.
So now we're shifting it
over to Instagram.
where they're going to do
that first search of a concept,
or specific business, or a personal brand.
Coupled with TikTok,
and this is like the basic
level of the strategy,
you've got your static grid up and going,
no longer have to worry
about posting to the Instagram feed.
Take that off of your plate.
You're now focused on
creating content for a space
that's going to get you visibility.
This is what TikTok was
actually built for is to
get you in front of people
and not just people,
but that are niche in your community.
The algorithm is so specific.
It's like a joke in the
comments section on TikTok
that nobody's lived a
unique experience in their life because
We are all kind of like
going through this and
we're finding relatability
in the most specific things.
So, you know,
if you're posting a video
onto TikTok and let's say
the first few weeks you're
stuck at 200 views.
About 180 of those views are
of your target audience.
Oh, wow.
It's so, so specific.
So
TikTok shows your content,
your videos to 85 to 90% of
people who are not already following you.
Whereas Instagram feed shows
your content on a regular basis.
I'm not talking about when
you can randomly go viral.
I'm talking about on a regular basis.
They're showing your content regularly.
to maybe 1% of people who
are not already following
you and like 5% of people
who are following you.
So why are we wasting all
this time creating for a
space that is not going to
get us that visibility?
Instead, get the visibility on TikTok,
bring them over to
Instagram where you can chat with them,
build relationships and
eventually convert.
This is so powerful for
businesses especially
because I feel if the
people on your TikTok are very niche,
there is a higher
percentage of them that
will buy from you.
I mean,
either you sell services or products,
right?
Instead of
tiring yourself of like with posting,
posting, posting,
hoping that through hashtag
and strategies and SEO, some like space,
like potential buyers will
see your content when
actually TikTok will
automatically show your
content to potential buyers.
Yeah.
And I mean,
I experimented with just using
Instagram stories for like
three months when I was in Mexico,
because I didn't have time
to post to the feed.
And I was like, well, what can I handle?
I still want to show up for my community,
but I can't make a carousel.
I'm not spending three hours
in freaking Canva making
essentially a PowerPoint
presentation that nobody's
even going to really see.
So I was like,
I built my whole business at
the beginning through
Instagram stories and people were like,
why don't you post the feed?
Like, that's crazy.
You should be using reels.
Like,
don't you want people to find your
content?
And I'm like,
they are because what's
happening is my community
that's watching my stories
and everybody's stories.
It's people who are already following you.
Those are the people who
become advocates of your
business and share your content.
And that share from a story
from somebody that you know
is way more effing powerful
than me showing up on the
discover page of Instagram
period.
Mic drop.
You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking,
damn, this is social media one-on-one.
Like really,
because I'm learning so much
and I have been learning from you a lot.
You know,
you are my go-to when it comes to
social media and I'm not a
savvy person when it comes
to social media.
LinkedIn is my gem, right?
Outside of LinkedIn,
this is something else.
But then even now I'm
listening to you and I'm like, damn,
this can be so simple.
But we don't know how simple
it can be because,
and I feel also there are
like so many gurus, like, listen,
as I'm getting back on
Instagram right now,
the other day I was like
scrolling on Instagram and
I came across videos telling, you know,
people tell you to post
multiple times a day.
Don't do that.
Do it only once.
Be specific about your hashtag,
only three hashtag.
And that's it.
And then I came across
another video saying, oh,
Oh, you know,
post two to three times per day.
They tell you to not do it.
But when you do it,
you post more than them.
So, you know,
you get more visibility than
your competitors.
And, you know,
don't use hashtags or use a
lot of hashtags.
So within the span of five minutes,
I came across videos
telling everything and the
complete opposite.
And I was like, okay, I'm done.
This is enough for me.
Where your focus goes, you grow.
So you're experiencing a lot
of growth on LinkedIn.
It's your gem.
I come to you for LinkedIn advice.
I still haven't figured it out.
what I'm going to do there yet.
Um,
but you've experienced that growth
because you've really,
really focused your attention there.
So why are we trying to do
everything on these spaces?
Instead of automating where you can and focus
If you're looking for growth on a space,
that's actually going to
give you F and growth.
Yeah.
I mean, so you asked like,
what are my clients seeing
with the Insta site?
The two big things,
one is if people are
discovering them on TikTok,
the immediate thing is
they're then going to go
and click on maybe a couple
other videos on their TikTok profile,
but then go to their Instagram account,
which you can link directly in TikTok.
They're going to binge there
and immediately follow.
The Insta site,
because it gives all the
information that somebody
might need when they first
come across your page,
it's like a bird's eye view
of your brand in like seconds.
The follow ship happens super fast,
but now they're also
noticing the conversion is a lot higher.
So with the strategies that
we're putting together, it's like, okay,
we're sharing more behind the scenes,
personal content on Instagram stories.
And this is just an example, TikTok,
we're sharing longer tutorial videos.
So now people are getting
different types of content,
still very aligned, still very cohesive.
on different spaces so they
have freaking reason to go
and follow you over on
tiktok or linkedin or
pinterest or whatever it is
that you're using as your
primary growth platform to
then drive the traffic over
to instagram to build those
relationships to convert to
retain and to build those
advocates of your brand and
your business.
Wow I love it
and so looking ahead uh
What kind of legacy,
and this is a question that
I like to ask all the guests,
what kind of legacy would
you like to leave through
your work with the Wolf Group?
What would you like to be remembered for?
I mean,
I'd definitely love to be
remembered for the InstaSite method,
for sure.
But, deeper than that,
it's I want people to feel
like they can do social work.
And not be overwhelmed about it anymore.
And I want them to remember
me for making them feel good about it.
Which is what you're doing.
I'm telling you,
this is already what you're doing.
It means that you're on the right path.
We're trying.
I keep seeing those number sequences,
Darine.
Is there any thought that
you would like to share
with our audience before we
wrap up the episode?
Take the pressure off of
yourself and step back from
your social for like even a
week and come back to it
with a clear head.
I guarantee you that space
is going to give you a fresh perspective,
new ideas, and really think about like,
how do I want to show up on here?
Know that the algorithms are
going to find your communities for you.
You don't need to do that outreach.
You just have to be you.
How powerful is that?
Very powerful.
Amanda,
I want to thank you for this social media
master class one on one.
Really appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
And thank you for opening up
about your journey, you know,
working in corporate and
transitioning to entrepreneurship.
This is not easy, but this is doable.
And one of the purpose of
this podcast is to showcase
a woman's story.
So other women, other people,
but more especially other
women who listen to your story,
understand that what they
are going through,
the shift that they are
going through is normal,
that there is nothing wrong.
This is just part of the process.
So thank you for being here
and for your willingness to
share your journey with us.
Thank you for having the
space where I can talk
about it because it's not
something I talk about a lot.
I know.
I know.
Thank you so much, Amanda.
Thank you.
