Sonia, welcome.
How are you doing?
Thank you, Darine. Thanks for having me.
I'm doing great.
I'm very hyped for this podcast.
Thank you. Me too.
And again, I feel like I keep saying it, but your story, your journey is quite impressive.
From war and survival, to refugee, to immigrant, to Canadian leader.
Can you take us back to the early days?
What was it like growing up in the middle of the war?
And how did those experiences shape your outlook on life?
Thanks. Thanks, Darine.
You know what?
I have to say, like, I really, for the longest time,
I wasn't really comfortable talking about it, only because I felt like people would look at me differently if I was brought up, you know, living through years of war and that war turning me and my family into refugees.
That eventually in the mid-90s were lucky enough to immigrate and call Canada their home.
And the reason why I wasn't comfortable with it is because I felt that people would feel sorry for me and that I would feel like a victim.
And I wasn't going to allow that to happen.
And I think what really, when you talk about whatever doesn't break you only makes you stronger, I 100% believe in that because I think all of those experiences, as bad as they were, created the woman that I am today, where you kind of prioritize yourself because you don't take life as seriously as you probably would, because you have seen what the real priorities are and what the real survival looks like.
But at the same time, it kind of brought up this whole leadership and the compassion that I think I don't know if I would have had had I not gone through those experiences that I have.
So, you know, that's kind of like just a sideline.
But it really all started off like, you know, you can tell just by the way I spell my first name. Canada, I wasn't born here.
So I immigrated as a child, 12 years old.
So I don't know, preteen from the Balkan areas of Europe.
And, you know, when the war broke out in the early 90s,
I had that experience to look at it all unfold through the lens of a child.
So it kind of shapes the perspective.
It shapes a lot of things and it shapes the values and what you hold dear to your heart.
And I think I was able to bring that once we actually arrived to Canada and, you know, there's a lot of struggle when you arrived as a newcomer, like you've got to learn the language first and you've got to learn the culture, you've got to adapt, you've got to simulate, you've got to do all of those things.
So after all of those hurdles came, you know, kind of came through,
So, you kind of come to a point that you need to decide that you cannot, like you have a choice. You can either play the victim card or you can choose not to have your past define your future. And I think for me, it was more because we did have people come up to us.
Now, keep in mind,
I'm the oldest son of three daughters.
So my mom and my dad had three daughters coming to Canada.
I'm the oldest one at 12.
My youngest one.
My younger sister was five years old.
So, you know, we did have people come up to us and say, hey, like, you know, Curb Your Expectations, three girls, really, what can they accomplish?
They're new.
They have to learn the language.
They have to adapt.
Like, I don't think that anyone really had high expectations of any of us just because of why we came where we came and how we had to adapt to it.
So I think that was kind of like, OK, let me show you what I can do.
Right?
And as the oldest daughter,
I think doing that kind of paved the way for my sisters as well, because now they had me as a role model pushing through.
And I did that.
It's an act of defiance because I wanted to prove everyone else wrong, not because of anything else.
Like it was really just me being stubborn and saying, okay, you don't believe, let me show you. And I'm glad that it happened the way it did, because as I said, it paved the way for two sisters who followed through as well.
And, you know, very similar experience, very similar expectations, very similar education and, you know, getting into the workforce, becoming leaders themselves.
Like it really kind of feels like that, you know, that that was all, it was all part of a plan, a plan that maybe I didn't really think about.
But now that I think back,
I'm like, you know what?
I think I was brought up to do this. Like I was born to do this.
And that kind of created the passion that I had for mentoring emerging female leaders, because it really started off me being born in this role.
But then when I saw the power that it can actually do, then I turned around and said, okay, what else can I do?
And the whole mentoring aspect.
And I have to say, I have been very lucky to have a career that has always supported the whole mentoring aspect and allowed me to do that as a side gig.
And we started off as an alumni group, very informal, but then it turned into these formal corporate mentorship programs, which I think became really popular, especially in the last 10, 15 years. Unfortunately, not before then, but whatever, last time, but better late than never, right? And so, you know, that's kind of the background that I had and the reason why I have the passion that I have for increasing the female representation in the corporate world.
You know,
I feel like an immigrant,
and I have had this conversation with a lot of guests on this podcast, that we have to prove ourselves.
We have to prove others, but we have also to prove ourselves that we can make it happen, that we have what it takes to become leaders, to have an impact.
When listening to you, I feel like you naturally turned to mentoring because as the oldest sister, you mentored your two younger sisters, right?
And so it's natural that you saw the impact.
You saw your power, your impact on your two sisters.
And as a leader, you decided to have the same impact on more women.
And thank you for that because we need more of that.
So you touched it a little bit.
Every journey has its turning point, right?
Can you share maybe a specific moment when you felt a significant shift either in yourself, in your career, a moment that propelled you forward on the path to becoming the strong Canadian leader that you are today?
Oh, my God, I can.
I can even laugh when I tell you because I'm going to, you know, it's my girl, Oprah, that I'm going to thank.
And it's like back like 20, 24 years ago now. So like the early 2000s, for those that know, they know. But Oprah Winfrey had a really, really popular show and I religiously watched it.
And she had this show where she talked about the secret.
I have seen videos of it on YouTube.
Okay.
So the secret is a book.
And then, you know, there was a documentary that came right after.
But to me, that was a turning point because I think I was right there, you know, finishing high school, deciding what to do with my life next.
What's the next steps?
You know, like which direction to take?
Because in my mind, I think I always wanted to be a lawyer.
And, you know, I was trying to prepare which way I'm going to, you know, what university, what law school, what follows, you know, LSATs, like all those things you think about.
And then I watched that episode and then it got me.
It resonated so much that obviously I got the book and then I read the book and then the documentary came out and I watched the documentary.
And it really changed everything because it made me think and I don't want to give it away to those who haven't seen it.
I am urging you, you have to watch it because it will change your outlook on life and how you perceive your future.
Because at the end of the day, you create your own future.
And I think I touched on it at the beginning just a little bit by saying you can become a victim of your circumstances only if you choose to do that, but you have a choice.
And a lot of people,
I think they just give up because they're like, oh,
I blame my dysfunctional family.
I blame my poor upbringing.
I blame this.
I blame that for my life.
That's playing a victim card.
And I think this whole secret book is kind of going to shift.
It will shift the way you think about that.
But that to me, that was a turning point because it really changed my philosophy.
I think I had bits and pieces of it because of everything that has happened to me up until that point.
But then this really solidified my belief that I get to create what my life is going to be.
And this is how I'm going to do it.
So I credit Oprah and her show.
And I'm sure a lot of people, like it was very, very popular, like I think it created a movement in Canada. I don't know about the US, but in Canada, that one single show has created a movement that has influenced a lot of women that I have spoken to since then.
But, you know, it kind of fizzled over the years.
And now whenever I speak to any, you know, Gen Zs or, you know, like, whatever generation came up through the millennia, those are Gen Zs.
I always, I always bring it up and I say, guys, like, I know it's going to sound weird, but you gotta do it. Just trust me.
You're going to do it.
You got to read the book, just read the book.
And let me tell you how it's going to change your life because it's all about self-belief and it's all about understanding the power that you have within you to shape and create what your future is going to look like.
So to me, that was kind of the turning point and everything else after that was a pure result of the intentions that I have put in the effort that I have put into getting me to where I am today.
Really when you think about it, everything up until that point, like really like all of my all my upbringing my you know my my experience my where I came from none of that really on paper none of that looks like it's going to make me to come out to be a leader never mind you know like being a successful one with a successful career you know on paper my odds were pretty Not good, right?
Yeah.
You know, you kind of turn that, that's my point.
You can turn that around.
You can choose not to be a victim of the circumstances, but you intentionally have to make that choice for yourself.
So can you guide us through the process or how do you change your intention when doing things?
Because I feel like it's easier said than done, but we know that it's doable.
But can you take us through your process of changing your intention in order to change the outcome and build the business, the future you envision for yourself?
Yeah, no, for sure.
It really starts off by having that BHAG, big, hairy, audacious goal.
You need to know what that is.
Like a lot of people are indecisive about what they want to do with their life.
And I think it really, like the first step is you've got to be able to articulate it because if you cannot articulate it for yourself,
You can't proceed with it.
What gets measured gets done.
And if you want to measure something, you want to make sure that you can articulate it on a piece of paper so you write it down.
And as an example, if your vision is that you want to be a leader in XYZ company in the next five years, you write that down.
And then you start breaking it down.
What are the steps, action plans that you will take to get to that B-hack that you have, right?
So back to my example, if it's the XYZ company, then number one thing, you want to research the company so you know exactly what it's all about, what are the values, what is the business model, where they operate, how far of a global footprint do they have, or whatever else you need to know about it.
And then number two, Look at LinkedIn, look to see if, first of all, you have to make sure you have a LinkedIn profile.
Like, I think that's a given, but if you don't, if you do already, then look at your LinkedIn network and see if you already have connections that are working there in that company that you can tap on their shoulders and, you know, ask them for a quick, 15-minute virtual coffee chat where they can teach you more about what the company is all about.
Because you need to know, like, if that's where you want to be, like, you want to learn as much as you can.
And then, you know, go back to your network and figure out if there is somebody that they know within the organization that works in the type of area that you're interested in, like if it's marketing as an example, that they can introduce you so that you can tap those people on the shoulder and ask for the virtual.
Like you've got to make sure that you do everything that you can to open the doors to where you want to be.
And see, now that I said that, I know the first objection will be, oh, but I can't do that.
What if they say no?
What if they don't want to help me?
What if that?
But then I'm going to flip it around and say, but what if they don't?
Like, if you don't ask, the answer is always going to be no.
And if you ask them, they get a no.
So what?
You're not going to be in a worse off position than you were prior to asking.
So you virtually have nothing to lose by asking, but everything else to gain.
So I'm going to go back to the whole secret concept.
You have a vision board.
So you put that on a vision board.
And that is something that you're going to place somewhere where you will see it every single day, multiple times a day.
Like for me, it's right here in front of me on the wall.
And the reason for that is because it keeps you focused.
It keeps the eyes on the prize of what you want to achieve.
And it ensures that you don't get distracted by anything. stuff that have nothing to do with what you're trying to achieve right um so I think that's really important because we do get distracted a lot there's a lot of thoughts that go through our head every day and unless you have this visual reminder of what the ultimate goal is you will get distracted and I think social media is not helping or cause, but that's neither here or there right now.
And I think that's the main strategy.
And I think the main, main things that I often repeat and even teach to my kids now is that action grows where energy flows, which literally means what you think about, you bring about.
So if you think about, you know,
I'm going to be successful,
I'm going to do this and this is going to happen, blah, blah.
Guess what?
You will get to that point. Yeah.
But at the same time, if you start doubting yourself, you bring the same type of energy into your life as well.
So it's a double edged sword.
But as long as you're focused on what is the ultimate goal,
I promise you will be good. You'll be fine.
Yeah and you know you talk to the power of vision board because oftentimes people think that vision board is just like putting nice nice pictures that look good together you know on your wall but if there is no vision there is no strategy there is no action plan and I would say this is key here the action plan then.
This is just nice pictures on your wall, right?
And all the strategies that you shared with us, and thank you for that.
You know, it's really how to put your intention into the images that you select to put on your vision board so you keep your focus.
And, you know...
Forget the noise, because as you said, there is a lot of noise around us.
And you mentioned doubt.
And actually, this is a perfect transition to my next question.
You have spoken about the challenge women face in assuming a submissive role due to the belief that others are smarter.
And I can recognize myself in this description. unfortunately, but I am a work in progress and so I'm getting better, right?
But we always find ourselves,
I want to say, at some point in rooms where we feel like others are smarter.
And there is this saying, you know, if you are the smarter person in the room, it means that you are not in the right room.
But on the other side, you know, there is a difference between surrounding yourself with people who are smarter and more advanced compared to you versus and you can get inspired and you know that you can get guidance from versus you thinking that you are less than others.
So have you ever personally navigated this?
Oh my God, Darine.
Okay. I would be lying.
I think everyone would be lying if they said they never experienced it.
And there is an actual term for it. It's called imposter syndrome. Everyone is a victim of it, but women are more prone to it.
Studies have shown that up to 80% of women in the C-suite.
So even when we are at the top, we feel like an imposter.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, that's exactly it.
I think and I think I think it's because I think women have been conditioned to believe that if they're not agreeable, if they're not nice, if they're not, you know, if they're not everything that if, if they just don't play by the rules, they're not gonna be liked.
And I don't know what it is about women wanting to be liked all the time.
Um, but I think it's, you know, we're doing ourselves a service, but you know, back to the imposter syndrome, it is a real thing, but what it is when you really boil it down, It is a real feeling, but a fake reality.
And I think it is so important for everyone to actually recognize it for what it is.
Recognize and acknowledge the feelings you're feeling because if you don't acknowledge it, you'll just drive yourself crazy thinking there's something wrong with you.
But also understand that it's a fake reality because everybody will experience it at least once in their life.
And I'll be honest, right before this podcast,
I was experiencing myself.
I talked to my husband.
I'm like, I don't know what she wants to talk to me about.
I don't know if I have anything to provide.
And then he looked at me.
He's like, what are you talking about?
Like, don't you do this all the time?
What do you mean you have nothing to provide?
Like, what is wrong with you?
So, you know, even like I will go through it, even though I have done this so many times. Sometimes you just need somebody to snap you out of it.
Yeah.
So that you can proceed because, you know, again, that's the imposter syndrome.
The way I experienced it the first time,
I remember the day and I'll tell you quickly about it because I think it was a pivotal point for me because I think I've gone through it before as a kid, you know, in school, but you don't know what it is.
So you kind of just, you know, brush it up.
You don't think about it.
But, you know, probably about 15, maybe even longer years ago, there was this one job that I really, really wanted.
It was a role with the organizations I was with at that time.
And it was to me, that was a dream job. I knew I was qualified.
I knew that if I had the opportunity, I would kick butt and I'd be really good at it.
I prepared like it was the interview process that took forever.
But every time like that, I would go through it like I know I did.
I made a great impression on the interviewers and, you know,
Sure enough, like weeks later, I was given the offer and I was so happy.
I remember I was crying like we were celebrating.
It was like it was a big deal because I really, really wanted it.
But then what happened is once I stepped into that new role for the next three months, instead of kicking butt like I thought I would,
I was in agony thinking that at any given time someone was going to knock on my door and say, oops, we made a mistake.
Like they wanted to give this job to somebody else or, or even worse, like, oops, you know, you're not as good as we thought you were.
And you feel like you're a fraud.
Like you feel that someone is going to figure out that somehow you snuck your way through the interview process and you've got this role undeservingly.
And I had a mentor at the time.
I didn't tell her about it until three months later, because I couldn't take it anymore.
And I remember calling her and I said, hey, like,
I think I'm losing it, you know, both my mind and I'm about to lose this job because I don't think I'm as good as I tricked these people to believe that I was.
And then she laughed like that was her reaction, too.
She just laughed at me.
She's like, oh, my God, you silly goose.
What you're experiencing is imposter syndrome.
So that was the first time that someone actually put a label to it and made me realize that, OK, like this is a real thing, like it's a real feeling, but it has nothing to do with reality.
And that's what I learned.
There's four easy steps to get rid of it. So I'm going to tell you about it.
Number one, acknowledge it for what it is. It is a real feeling and you have to acknowledge it to make yourself feel comfortable so you don't feel like you're losing your mind.
It's a real feeling, but it has nothing to do with reality.
Number two, think about it for like 30 seconds.
Give yourself permission to feel the feeling.
Again, you're doing this for yourself, not for anybody else.
Feel the feeling, but not longer than 30 seconds.
Number three, ditch it because you have better things to occupy your mind with than this fake reality thing that's occupying space in your mind rent-free, right?
And number four, kick butt and take names because you know you can do it and you're cut out for it. Love that.
Love that. Four simple steps.
Let's do it. Wow.
See?
And that's the thing. Like, the more I talk to women on this podcast, the more I realize how things can be very easy, you know?
Once we acknowledge them and once we learn how to overcome those fake obstacles or fake realities or all the barriers that we create in our own mind.
And the solution oftentimes is so much easier than what we think.
So we need to learn how to stop overthinking because this is killing us.
That's right. 100%.
It's killing us.
But I think also hearing that others have gone through similar experiences makes you feel like you're not the only one, right?
So I think, and we don't do that enough.
Like we don't share because, you know,
I'm telling you right now about this, would I have done the same thing 20 years ago?
Probably not.
Cause I would feel embarrassed that you would judge me for feeling like, you know, imposter, you know, 20 years later, like I'm in a different, mean obviously I'm in a different um age group right now where I don't really care like I'll just you know what I mean I think that comes that comfortability level comes with age as well so I don't know but um but I think it's important because if you don't have the support group and you don't have the support network where you feel comfortable, safe space that you talked about earlier, where you don't feel comfortable to share that, then you kind of bottle it up.
Like you keep it to yourself and that it doesn't do you any, it doesn't do you any good, but sharing it with others might just help somebody else that you're not even aware of.
So I think, I think this podcast is a perfect, perfect solution to that problem that I think women still have, especially the younger women right now, because, you know, with the Gen Zs and the social media, like, they are all over social media, yet they have no people skills behind the screen, right?
I think that social media has killed that personal touch and personal contact that I think you and I grew up knowing, like, you know, the power of a firm handshake as an example.
Exactly.
Talking to people, literally, simply talking to people.
Yeah.
Talking to people, connecting with people, with words, not with, you know, Emojis.
Yeah.
Like I think, um, this podcast, I hope my hope is that it reaches the gen Zs more than anyone else, because I think that's where we are going to see the stagnation even worse than we had seen up until now, because of additional obstacles that have creeped up in that generation.
So if you are a woman leaders who feel ready to share her story to first of all, you know, allow yourself to have a voice, to share your story in a safe space, but also to inspire other women in the younger generation that, you know, sometimes life sucks for all of us and that's okay, then you're welcome to join us as a guest on the podcast.
So thank you for bringing that up, Sanja.
Let's talk about confidence.
So we have talked about self-doubt, imposter syndrome.
You know, you shared with us four steps, easy steps to overcome imposter syndrome.
And confidence plays a pivotal role in career progression.
Okay.
So how do you approach teaching your mentees the psychology of confidence, especially when they may be surrounded by societal expectations?
Yes.
So I say screw the societal expectations, like start with that, because I'll tell you, like, all you have to do is literally sit in the boardroom and watch the attendees.
And unconsciously, all the men will come and sit at a table.
All the women will pull up a chair and go at the back.
Or if they sit at the table, they will shrink themselves so they don't take up too much space.
So they will have, you know, tidy up their laptop so it's right in front of them.
If they have a coffee cup, they'll put it right in front of it just so they don't physically take up too much space and that is the first like we don't think about it like it just naturally happens I don't know maybe because we were conditioned to believe that that's what we are supposed to be like but men do it exactly the opposite and it's all about That space that you take up.
And that's how it starts.
And what I mean by that is, I'm going to, sorry, before I go into that, the whole concept that Amy Cuddy has coined in is fake it till you believe it.
And it starts with how much space you take up.
So when you come and sit down, if you're sitting like this, you're not projecting confidence.
If you're sitting straight up with your shoulders squared, you're projecting confidence.
The same goes when you speak.
If you're shield up like this when you talk, your voice does not carry the same way that it would if you were sitting up and actually talking into the crowd so they can actually hear you.
So I think the whole concept of power posing is something that I tell all of my mentees to look into.
Again, Amy Cuddy, amazing TED Talk.
You can YouTube it and watch it, but she spends an hour and a half talking about the power of power posing and what it does for the space that you take up, and for the type of confidence that you project when you're speaking, when you're walking, when you're presenting, when you're shaking hands with somebody.
All of that plays into it.
But it really starts with a mindset, right?
It really starts with a physical taking up of the space, the way you sit, you talk, you walk, whatever.
But it all starts from within you.
And you can control that.
I think that's the main point that she's trying to portray is that you can control how you are seen and perceived by others by simply controlling your body language and making a conscious decision when you're walking into a boardroom to actually take up space.
And if you don't know how to do it, just look at any man in the room and you'll see their laptop is right here.
Their papers are all over the place.
They're sitting back like this.
All over the place with their legs crossed.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, completely opposite what, you know, I would normally do. Well, now that I have years of experience in consciously treating myself not to do that, I don't do it anymore.
But then I watch younger women, you know, come into the same trap and, you know, just simple things that you can do to, you know, fake it till you become it.
And it's not going to be comfortable at the beginning because it goes against what we are naturally conditioned to do.
But the more you do it, the better you get at it.
And it becomes second nature.
So I think we have all heard about the Wonder Woman pose.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Perfect.
That thing works.
And I'll tell you how I know for sure, not because I tried it myself.
Obviously, I did many, many years ago.
So I know it works. but then I wanted to try it on the unsuspecting people which is my children so since they were like three four years old we started practicing that and I didn't call it wonder woman I call it a you know superman pose but that's what they would do before any practice before any test in school before anything that would make them nervous.
We would, you know, three of us would stand in the living room like a Superman for five minutes and we would just be chanting whatever we are trying to do.
So if it's a soccer game, you know, I'll be really good at soccer.
I'm going to score so many goals.
And, you know, to them, that became like a normal thing because they don't know any better.
I see you as children.
They started teaching them that.
Now, mind you, there are two boys.
I'm pretty sure eventually they would learned it on their own without me telling them about it but I wanted to test out the psychology of it and how powerful it actually is when you're doing it with someone who has nothing to do like they have no concept of this wonder woman power posing and the effects that it had like I just wanted to test it out to see you know how they would react to it and um and I definitely for everyone that's listening if you don't know what I'm talking about please please please youtube Amy Cuddy and she will explain an hour and a half everything that you need to know how to change the way you are being perceived just by simply controlling your body language, which ultimately controls how you speak as well.
Yes.
And the thing is, it's very important because perception is key.
No matter how good you are at what you do at your craft, you know, people's perception of you is their reality.
So if you keep your head down, working hard, and this is something that I repeat often, you know, like that you are the best at what you do, but that no one knows it.
What's the point?
Because in their mind, people for people, you are what they perceive of you, not who you are. Right.
So that's why I like power posing and the way you communicate, you know, standing tall and, you know, speaking with confidence, even if inside of you, you are checking.
That's OK.
That's OK.
The thing is that how do you portray that stress and comfort to others?
How do you hide it?
Right.
But here is the thing.
Here's the fine line.
You know, with assertiveness, how do you guide women?
And we know it, you know, I mean, it sounds cliche, but in 2024, this is still a reality.
Like a woman who showcases assertiveness, she will be perceived as an angry woman, bossy, bitchy, and you name it, right?
But on the other side, it's important for us also to showcase confidence and to take up that space you were talking about.
So how do you find the right balance between being assertive, being confident and showcasing that self-confidence and not being perceived negatively by your colleagues.
Um, okay.
So I think women need to recognize this, and this is mother's nature's work.
And that's one thing we have a leg up on when it comes to men is that women have higher EQ than men.
Usually that's how it is.
Like we have this natural ability to connect and nurture and, and, and collaborate with people without really giving it a second thought.
It's just part of the EQ that it's ingrained in us.
That's part of our DNA.
So how do you ensure that you are not perceived in all those negative words?
First of all, whoever is perceiving you that way and is actually using those words to describe you is probably someone that shouldn't be in a corporate world in 2024, especially when we have so much focus on harassment and how to avoid it and feeling safe in the workplace.
But, you know, things will still happen.
So how do you make sure that you kind of, you know, navigate through that is by not being afraid to tap into your EQ that you have connect with people.
I think a lot of women, especially I'm going to say this was probably more of a case 20 something years ago when we didn't have that many female leaders.
And, you know, feeling or showing any emotion in the workplace was seen as a sign of weakness.
A lot of women really wanted to assimilate into the boys club.
So they check their femininity at the door and they enter the office building pretending to be like one of the boys.
And that has, I think, killed whatever connection any other female leader wanted to have with that woman because now they're guarded, right?
They don't want anyone, you know, they feel like someone, if they open up the door for any other female leader, they might be knocked off their chair.
So they, you know, they climb the...
They, you know, shut out the glass ceilings, but they built the concrete walls so no one else can come. And I think luckily, I think we have moved away from that 20 something years later.
But it's still around. And I think it's because it all started with that negativity that, you know, early pioneers of female leaders have kind of created for us.
Like, I'm not blaming them.
They had their fair share of obstacles to overcome, probably a lot, a hell of a lot more than we have today.
But I think one thing that they inadvertently created was this image of being called bitchy, being called bossy, being called this, being called that.
And I think today in 2024 and forward, how we do that is by recognizing the mother's nature's gift that we have, which is the EQ and connecting on an emotional side.
You can still be assertive without coming across as a bitch.
If you are able to do it in a diplomatic way with compassion, because I'll tell you any good leader is not going to be a good leader.
If, you know, if he or she is driving the right numbers and KPR, like KRIs, KPR, whatever, if they're driving the right numbers, but they have attrition in their team because none of their teams want to work for them.
Yeah.
So, you know, tap into that type into that EQ that we all have.
And don't be afraid that showing any type of emotion will somehow take away the authority that you have, because I think it's quite the opposite.
And it's true. And, you know, myself, I'm a millennial, and I had the privilege of... having an international career quite at a young age. And I was the youngest person in the room, the only woman in the room.
And I remember being very masculine because I thought that that was the only way for me to prove that I had my seat at the table and that I deserved to be in those rooms with all those men. So I had really taken away 100% of my femininity in order to be perceived as a leader.
Which now I no longer do and I'm very glad of it.
But I remember in my early time, my early age, having an international career, that's how I would behave because I thought that this is how I would be perceived as credible.
That's, you know, I laugh because you're telling my story.
Same thing.
I know you have an international perspective, but let me tell you, on Canadian soil, the exact same thing is happening.
So, you know, this was, again, this was 20 years.
I don't want to age myself, but it was 20 years ago.
Like, you know, when I was entering the career,
I think I was 22 when I got the first manager role. Like when I actually had a leader position, 22. 20.
Yeah, I was exactly 20.
Youngest person in the room.
And that was it.
I, Darine, I kid you not, I went through a phase where I actually dyed my hair dark to see if that would be taken more seriously than being a blonde.
And I'll tell you, the saddest thing is that it worked.
It worked.
I went dark brown.
And for a good, I don't even know, probably a couple of years that I had it, I could tell the difference in the way people perceive me when I speak.
But what it did, yeah, sure, it gave me results that I needed because that was a simulation.
I was fitting into the boys club.
But it made me feel miserable because it wasn't me, right?
I didn't feel like myself.
And then, you know, again, it comes with age.
At some point, you kind of say, screw it. I'm going to be me.
And whether you like it or not, you're going to have to deal with it.
And, you know, and I think just doing that and recognizing that gives you that power to live your best life and not really care about, you know, what other people think about you is none of your business, as long as the right people know who you truly are and what your value is.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if you're listening or watching this and you are in your 20s, this is something easier said than done.
But trust me, I'm in my 30s and I can experience it.
And I know, you know, entering in our 40s and 50s, hopefully I will get there.
But From what I hear from all the women I'm collaborating with, it gets better with age.
So, you know, this is really for me a motivation to age because I'm like, listen, this is how I feel in my 30s compared to my 20s.
I can't wait to see what my 40s will look like.
I think in your forties, you just say, screw it.
I'm going to deal with it. And if you're in your twenties and you're listening to this, I have a call to action.
Please, please, please go on Amazon, find my book, read it, and then connect with me on LinkedIn.
Let's talk about it.
Cause I think I'm, I don't think I know we need a movement.
We need a movement to change the perspective of Gen Z's and how they behave and how they proceed as they're entering, because all of them are right now finishing university, actually entering the workforce.
Right
And I have seen firsthand what that looks like when you hire a freshman of university.
Yes, they're super smart, but they have no people skills because their social skills are all in social media, not in actual face to face conversations.
And we need to change that because that's going to take us back to like 1980s numbers.
Never mind, you know, 2023 numbers.
Yeah so let's talk about your book you have a best-selling book show us your book and and and tell us more about it yeah so it's right behind me as I said so I'll tell you I'll tell you why it had to be written it had to be written because again I spent years almost yeah almost two decades mentoring And that because, you know, I enjoyed it.
I loved it.
And I felt that because I didn't have it, I needed to make sure that people don't go like women don't go through the same thing that I have gone through when you're kind of seeking that perspective, female perspective, someone who has made it to where you want to be.
But I didn't have that because, you know, there were not a lot of options.
There were not a lot of female leaders.
And those that were there, to my point earlier, built those concrete walls for the fear of losing their positions that they fought so hard to get to.
And after doing that for like decades, first of all, there were ongoing things that came up like imposter syndrome.
Like that's one thing that regardless of the age, regardless of the years of experience, women all have the same thing.
And that's the imposter syndrome that's not negotiating for themselves, that's feeling a lack of self-confidence, that's trying to do way too much and trying to be a superwoman and try to do it all.
And, you know, it's those little things.
And obviously the question of maternity leave comes into play.
How do you balance both the family and the career?
Can you have it all?
Can you really have it all?
It's all of those things.
And at the end, it was the last few years, I had a whole bunch of mentees asking for a tangible playbook.
They're like, can you not just put in a book so we can pick it up and read it instead of chatting whenever, like, you know, trying to ping you whenever we have a question.
And then, you know, the silver lining of COVID, all of a sudden lockdowns happen.
And I'm like, oh my God, this is it.
This is the opportunity because now I actually have time because I can't go anywhere.
Let me start this, you know, with this playbook that everyone is talking about.
So it took a bit of time, but I really wanted it to be a meaningful date, which was March of 2023. And the reason why March, well, first of all, March is because of International Women's Day.
But I think what really pushed me over the edge is the McKenzie's Women in the Workplace 2022 report.
I don't know if you have seen it.
A sad report.
Yes, I have read it.
Yeah.
It's horrible.
And obviously COVID didn't do us any favors because, you know, it pushed the numbers back down for little progress that was made so that was kind of like okay this is it like it's all the signs that I have that this has to be done it has to be done in march 2023 because I needed to my my goal was to reach the biggest number of mentees in the shortest period of time for the greatest impact on those numbers,
And, you know, since then, I haven't stopped mentoring.
I haven't stopped, you know, going to different podcasts and, you know, presenting in different ERGs that are focused on female representation.
I haven't stopped any of that. But what I did, like, you know, there was one thing that kind of influenced all of this was I partnered up with three of my three of my colleagues.
And we now have an organization called Go Beyond Bonds, which is just focused on providing education and tangible lessons that people can take with them to enhance their careers. So, you know, if you're listening, gobeyondbonds.org is our website. We actually have our inaugural first ever event scheduled for March 21st.
So March being the month that is so important to everybody.
And that is in recognition of International Women's Month.
And again, the whole focus is, it's open to obviously like men allies for sure, but the whole focus is, okay, let's see how many mentees we can get into one room in one time they can walk out you know hours later from the session they have learned some valuable skills that they can implement that day that will guide their career forward.
I love it and can you remind us of the name of your book?
Sure it's called 3Be bold and brilliant”
Let me let me do this.
I'm gonna put it in the camera.
It is on Amazon.
So if you just search either by my name or by the title, it will come up.
But if you just put in my first name, it will come up for sure because there's not a lot of people that spell Sonia the way I do.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
And my last question to you, Sonia, is what would you like to be remembered for?
Oh, wow.
I think on a professional level,
I would like to be remembered as someone who has opened the doors where others didn't think they were possible to open.
Now, whether it's within supply chain, which is my bread and butter, that's what I do, or whether it's through mentoring for women leaders,
I would want to be remembered as someone who has elevated someone's ability to progress in their career, because I really strive to do that every day.
On a personal note again I have two boys um god bless me with two you know boys not girls I think if I had a girl or she would have been a monster by now but you know that's an argument that my husband makes all the time but um I do have two boys and I really do um my I want my future daughter-in-laws to actually you know one day remember me as someone who has done a really good job in raising the boys to be the best providers fathers partners that they can be.
That's the last question I ask to all my guests.
Because I think it's important you know that you are making an impact, you are a leader, you are a leader at home, you are a leader at work, so you are making an impact and so there is a reason right you are building a legacy so what would be this legacy?
What would you like to be remembered for?
I love this question and I love to ask it to all my guests.
Thank you, thank you for that.
So is there anything that you would like to add before we wrap up this episode?
Again, to all the listeners, especially if you are younger, and you are looking for some guidance, you're looking for some help, or you just need a balance, like a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.
Please, please, please don't be shy and ask for help because asking for help is not a sign of weakness.
It is actually a sign of wisdom in knowing that it takes a village.
You don't know what you don't know.
So just ask for help and you will be surprised how much things move faster and better for you. And there's that saying, if you want to go fast, go alone.
But if you want to go far, go with a team.
Like I truly truly believe that and I think especially women are conditioned well I think both men and women are conditioned not to ask for help but for different reasons but I guarantee you if you lean into your network a trusted network that you have cultivated over the years and you ask for help you will be surprised how much support you can get and where it can take you in a shorter period of time.
Thank you so much Sanja that was a wonderful conversation.
Thank you Darine Pleasure is all mine.
